Right and you also have to mention one more thing: all this only concerns the civil law claim (everything that was laid down in the BGB is civil law). In addition, there is what I mentioned: you can report it to the GGL and who knows what they are like. Anything from penalties/sanctions to revocation of the license is possible.
I would be interested in the opinion of StarGames^^
Yes of course you could but whether you want to get a Provider into trouble right away because of a mistake is always a thing, maybe it was just forgotten can be quite possible and StarGames hasn't really stood out so far where you could say they're aiming to rip people off at the back, on the contrary, they've always answered questions about everything here
The other provider circumvents the streaming ban necessary for Player protection and thus shits on the law and thus on its customers
The other provider slams you with ads even though you have unsubscribed from them
The other provider lets you Deposit up to 5k a month without using the Lugas limit etc...
So many providers clearly show how little they care about their customers and in some cases even the player protection regulations, but StarGames is somehow not one of them
gamble1 wrote on 22.06.2024 at 18:32:
Yes of course you could, but whether you want to get a Provider into trouble right away because of a mistake is always one of those things, maybe it was just forgotten, it could well be and StarGames hasn't really stood out so far where you could say they're aiming to rip people off at the back, on the contrary, they've always answered questions about everything here
The other provider circumvents the streaming ban necessary for Player protection and thus shits on the law and thus on its customers
The other provider slams you with ads even though you have unsubscribed from them
The other provider lets you Deposit up to 5k a month without using the Lugas limit etc...
So many providers obviously show how little they care about their customers and in some cases even the player protection regulations, but StarGames is somehow not one of them
I don't think they would have any major problems right away. But I do think that they would receive a warning. They shouldn't be allowed to do this too often. At some point it would definitely be over. As I wrote before, I hope that not only player protection but also consumer protection has improved.
I can't say whether they don't care about their customers. I only know that the customer was disadvantaged twice (technical jargon: "taken for a ride"). Once he was disadvantaged because the terms and conditions of a promotion were changed without his knowledge and the second time he was disadvantaged when the "goodwill offer" was made to him. He was also not informed of the conditions of the offer. I am not friends with XXLEONIDASXX and have never written to him privately, but I find it really outrageous how he was treated here as a customer. If you ask me, the cherry on the cake was the following: at the end he was told that real money credits were converted once. Great, this information is now helping him. I'd feel like I'd really been taken for a ride. Let's say they can't help the poor RTP, but then the customer service should be right. There were other things that triggered me here, but I won't mention them. Don't want to go too off-topic.
frapi07 wrote on June 22nd, 2024 at 7:23 pm:
I don't think they would get into big trouble right away. But I think that they would get a warning. They can't allow themselves to do that too often. At some point it would definitely be over. As I wrote before, I hope that not only Player protection but also consumer protection has improved.
I can't say whether they don't care about their customers. I only know that the customer was disadvantaged twice (technical jargon: "taken for a ride"). Once he was disadvantaged because the terms and conditions of a promotion were changed without his knowledge and the second time he was disadvantaged when the "goodwill offer" was made to him. He was also not informed of the conditions of the offer. I am not friends with XXLEONIDASXX and have never written to him privately, but I find it really outrageous how he was treated here as a customer. If you ask me, the cherry on the cake was the following: at the end he was told that real money credits were converted once. Great, this information is now helping him. I'd feel like I'd really been taken for a ride. Let's say it's "not their fault" for the poor RTP, but then the customer service should be right. There were other things that triggered me here, but I won't mention them. Don't want to go too off-topic.
Actually, the issue is already over for us and we didn't want to respond here. We are doing it anyway because unfortunately you write a lot of things that are not true and we would like to deny and clarify this. We are only replying to your last comment, but please take it as a reply to all other comments since yesterday.
Firstly. You are right. We are only allowed to make T&Cs with the player's consent and with the information "Hey, we're changing something in the T&Cs." . We did that the last time we received German permission. To my knowledge, there have been no changes to the T&Cs since then.
Because what you've already written about 10 comments here is NOT the T&Cs. They are bonus conditions.
There are GENERAL bonus conditions. You can also find them in the footer of our website. These describe the framework within which our promotions run. These are NOT our general terms and conditions.
However, there are also the specific bonus conditions for the respective promotion. These are also NOT our T&Cs. Why? Because you do not have to accept them in order to play on the website. You do not have to accept any of our offers.
In the case we're talking about here, although the promotion is called "Sunday Classics" and takes place every Sunday, the individual promotions are SEPARATE on every single Sunday. You can think of it like a Deposit bonus today and a Deposit bonus in 2 weeks. Both are deposit Bonuses, but the values, expiration dates, etc. can change between the campaigns. Because these are 2 separate, independent campaigns. Just like a supermarket chain that sometimes does a 25% off, sometimes a 30% off and sometimes a "pay 1, take 2" promotion, we do different things.
This is also the case here. So the conditions can change. Normally they don't, here there was a change, which has now been reversed anyway.
We accept your feedback and that it should be more transparent. You're right about that. Therefore, the conditions are now all immediately visible on the My Bonuses page for all active and inactive bonuses.
But we would like to deny for the last time that we would not follow the German law on terms and conditions and ask you to stop spreading such false statements. Thank you very much.
MisterL wrote on 22.06.2024 at 21:04: the answer will have it in itself!
Frapi is our Messi
"show them"
you called me and here I am
StarGames_Official wrote on 22.06.2024 at 20:24:
Actually, the topic is already closed for us and we didn't want to respond here anymore. We are doing it anyway, because unfortunately you write a lot that is not true and we would like to deny and clarify this. We are only responding to your last comment, but please take it as a response to all other comments since yesterday.
Firstly. You are right. We are only allowed to make T&Cs with the player's consent and with the information "Hey, we're changing something in the T&Cs." . We did that the last time we received German permission. To my knowledge, there have been no changes to the T&Cs since then.
Because what you've already written about 10 comments here is NOT the T&Cs. They are bonus conditions.
There are GENERAL bonus conditions. You can also find them in the footer of our website. These describe the framework within which our promotions run. These are NOT our general terms and conditions.
However, there are also the specific bonus conditions for the respective promotion. These are also NOT our T&Cs. Why? Because you do not have to accept them in order to play on the website. You do not have to accept any of our offers.
In the case we're talking about here, although the promotion is called "Sunday Classics" and takes place every Sunday, the individual promotions are SEPARATE on every single Sunday. You can think of it like a Deposit bonus today and a Deposit bonus in 2 weeks. Both are deposit Bonuses, but the values, expiration dates, etc. can change between the campaigns. Because these are 2 separate, independent campaigns. Just like a supermarket chain that sometimes does a 25% off, sometimes a 30% off and sometimes a "pay 1, take 2" promotion, we do different things.
This is also the case here. So the conditions can change. Normally they don't, here there was a change, which has now been reversed anyway.
We accept your feedback and that it should be more transparent. You're right about that. Therefore, the conditions are now all immediately visible on the My Bonuses page for all active and inactive bonuses.
However, we would like to deny for the last time that we do not follow the German law on terms and conditions and ask you to stop spreading such false statements. Thank you very much.
All good, you don't have to reply to every comment individually. I understand that. Unfortunately, mistakes happen here too. You forgot to respond to the most important criticism. But I'll deal with that later.
First of all, I would like to address the point of criticism regarding the GTCs:
It is your right to respond and justify yourselves. Nobody will hold that against you, least of all me. You think I'm writing a lot of false facts, so I'm going to prove everything factually so that the assertions now become facts.
So I read your comment and understood it like this: you argue that only the bonus conditions and not the terms and conditions were changed.
Okay, so far so good, now I have looked at your page Bonus Declaration | StarGames. At the bottom of the page it says "All of these individual units are explained in detail in our promotional campaigns via newsletter or on our promotion page. Answers to many questions can also be found under "My bonuses" and in the FAQ or at Terms and conditions for promotions." (last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:28)
Notice anything there? It says " Terms and conditions for promotions " If you click on the word, you will be redirected to another page, namely this Terms and conditions for promotions | StarGames You also call them Terms and Conditions! Makes sense, because the bonus conditions are part of the T&Cs.
Well, I did some more research and looked at the other competitors to be able to compare and check whether I was really too eager or whether I was right after all. At Wunderino, for example, the item "Bonus conditions" is also listed as a sub-item in the T&Cs (source: Wunderino terms and conditions, point 9: Free spins and bonuses; last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:35).
I also clicked through to Betano and found the following: " The bonus conditions of Kaizen Gaming International Ltd. are an essential part of the General Terms and Conditions. If a matter is not mentioned or explained in more detail in these terms and conditions, the terms and conditions apply as the relevant terms and conditions." (Source: Bonus Terms and Conditions | Betano, last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:37). Here, a competitor points out that the bonus conditions are a essential part of the GTCs and are not to be considered separately as you have just written.
Summary: T&Cs are an integral part of the T&Cs and if you change the Bonus terms of an existing promotion without permission, then you also change the T&Cs at the same time.
If I'm wrong again, please prove it to me. Then I will apologize, retract my accusations and end the topic. However, as I have proven here, the "bonus conditions" are an integral part of the T&Cs. I have provided enough evidence of this.
Well, I could stop here, because there is enough evidence to justify my criticism, but there is another point of criticism, which I mentioned at the beginning.
The way customers are treated:
You forgot to respond to the fact that your player was disadvantaged by you twice. Once with the bonus and once with the "compensation". You also claimed that the player here knew about the conditions. It turned out that this was not the case. What did you do then? Nothing. You simply explained to the player what the conditions of your real money credits were. What was the point of this explanation? By then it was already too late. Everyone makes mistakes and no one will hang you on a cross because of a mistake, but the way you handled it was just sad.
frapi07 wrote on 22.06.2024 at 21:50:
All good, you don't have to reply to each comment individually. I understand that. Unfortunately, mistakes happen here too. You forgot to respond to the most important criticism. But I'll deal with that later.
First of all, I would like to address the point of criticism regarding the GTCs:
It is your right to respond and justify yourselves. Nobody will hold that against you, least of all me. You think I'm writing a lot of false facts, so I'm going to prove everything factually so that the assertions now become facts.
So I read your comment and understood it like this: you argue that only the bonus conditions and not the terms and conditions were changed.
Okay, so far so good, now I have looked at your page Bonus Declaration | StarGames. At the bottom of the page it says "All of these individual units are explained in detail in our promotional campaigns via newsletter or on our promotion page. Answers to many questions can also be found under "My bonuses" and in the FAQ or at Terms and conditions for promotions." (last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:28)
Notice anything there? It says " Terms and conditions for promotions " If you click on the word, you will be redirected to another page, namely this Terms and conditions for promotions | StarGames You also call them Terms and Conditions! Makes sense, because the bonus conditions are part of the T&Cs.
Now I've done some more research and looked at the other competitors to compare and check whether I was really too eager or right after all. At Wunderino, for example, the item "Bonus conditions" is also listed as a sub-item in the T&Cs (source: Wunderino terms and conditions, point 9: Free spins and Bonuses; last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:35).
I also clicked through to Betano and found the following: " The bonus conditions of Kaizen Gaming International Ltd. are an essential part of the General Terms and Conditions. If a matter is not mentioned or explained in more detail in these terms and conditions, the terms and conditions apply as the relevant terms and conditions." (Source: Bonus Terms and Conditions | Betano, last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:37). Here, a competitor points out that the bonus conditions are a essential part of the GTCs and are not to be considered separately as you have just written.
Summary: T&Cs are an integral part of the T&Cs and if you change the Bonus terms of an existing promotion without permission, then you also change the T&Cs at the same time.
If I'm wrong again, please prove it to me. Then I will apologize, retract my accusations and end the topic. However, as I have proven here, the "bonus conditions" are an integral part of the T&Cs. I have provided enough evidence of this.
Well, I could stop here, because there is enough evidence to justify my criticism, but there is another point of criticism, which I mentioned at the beginning.
The way customers are treated:
You forgot to respond to the fact that your player was disadvantaged by you twice. Once with the bonus and once with the "compensation". You also claimed that the player here knew about the conditions. It turned out that this was not the case. What did you do then? Nothing. You simply explained to the player what the conditions of your real money credits were. What was the point of this explanation? By then it was already too late. Everyone makes mistakes and no one will hang you on a cross because of a mistake, but the way you handled it was just sad.
And the official should also finally explain why you have to wager the converted real money once again after you have already wagered the bonus 40 times, this was not answered in the other thread.
Because I don't know of any casino on this planet where you have already wagered the bonus and then the money converted into real money has to be wagered once again.
Please don't use the argument again that the real money always has to be wagered once. And again, we're not talking about deposited or gifted money here, but the real money after a successfully converted bonus.
frapi07 wrote on 22.06.2024 at 21:50:
All good, you don't have to reply to each comment individually. I understand that. Unfortunately, mistakes happen here too. You forgot to respond to the most important criticism. But I'll deal with that later.
First of all, I would like to address the point of criticism regarding the GTCs:
It is your right to respond and justify yourselves. Nobody will hold that against you, least of all me. You think I'm writing a lot of false facts, so I'm going to prove everything factually so that the assertions now become facts.
So I read your comment and understood it like this: you argue that only the bonus conditions and not the terms and conditions were changed.
Okay, so far so good, now I have looked at your page Bonus Declaration | StarGames. At the bottom of the page it says the following "All of these individual units are explained in detail in our promotional campaigns via newsletter or on our promotion page. Answers to many questions can also be found under "My bonuses" and in the FAQ or at Terms and conditions for promotions." (last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:28)
Notice anything there? It says " Terms and conditions for promotions " If you click on the word, you will be redirected to another page, namely this Terms and conditions for promotions | StarGames You also call them Terms and Conditions! Makes sense, because the bonus conditions are part of the T&Cs.
Well, I did some more research and looked at the other competitors to be able to compare and check whether I was really too eager or whether I was right after all. At Wunderino, for example, the item "Bonus conditions" is also listed as a sub-item in the T&Cs (source: Wunderino terms and conditions, point 9: Free spins and Bonuses; last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:35).
I also clicked through to Betano and found the following: " The bonus conditions of Kaizen Gaming International Ltd. are an essential part of the General Terms and Conditions. If a matter is not mentioned or explained in more detail in these terms and conditions, the terms and conditions apply as the relevant terms and conditions." (Source: Bonus Terms and Conditions | Betano, last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:37). Here, a competitor points out that the bonus conditions are a essential part of the GTCs and are not to be considered separately as you have just written.
Summary: T&Cs are an integral part of the T&Cs and if you change the Bonus terms of an existing promotion without permission, then you also change the T&Cs at the same time.
If I'm wrong again, please prove it to me. Then I will apologize, retract my accusations and end the topic. However, as I have proven here, the "bonus conditions" are an integral part of the T&Cs. I have provided enough evidence of this.
Well, I could stop here, because there is enough evidence to justify my criticism, but there is another point of criticism, which I mentioned at the beginning.
The way customers are treated:
You forgot to respond to the fact that your player was disadvantaged by you twice. Once with the bonus and once with the "compensation". You also claimed that the player here knew about the conditions. It turned out that this was not the case. What did you do then? Nothing. You simply explained to the player what the conditions of your real money credits were. What was the point of this explanation? By then it was already too late. Everyone makes mistakes and no one will hang you on a cross because of a mistake, but the way you handled it was simply sad.
Point 1: Bonus conditions are conditions that apply together with the GTC. But as we have already said: T&Cs are the contract between us and the player. You have to accept that when you register.
Bonus conditions are not included there. You accept these when you claim a bonus.
It is normal that we call these "General Terms and Conditions for Promotions", but these are still NOT the General Terms and Conditions that you accepted when you registered.
Hopefully this is now clear.
We have commented on point 2 several times. For the last time: the compensation was reasonable from our point of view. We feel that we have nevertheless accommodated the customer after a public posting in a public forum. 99% of casinos don't do that. They wouldn't even respond to something like that, German-licensed or not.
The credit was not because the terms were changed to real money wagering. It was because the customer had a requirement that was unrealistic to achieve. It would have been unrealistic even with bonus wagering, hence the compensation.
The issue is closed from our side. Please share any other experiences in the "StarGames experiences" thread, as they belong there. We wish you a nice evening and a pleasant weekend.
And the official should also finally explain why you have to wager the converted real money, which has to be wagered 1x after you have already wagered the bonus 40x, in the other thread this was not answered.
And the official should also finally explain why you have to wager the converted real money, which has to be wagered 1x after you have already wagered the bonus 40x, in the other thread this was not answered.
Because I don't know of any casino on this planet where you have already wagered the bonus and then the money converted into real money has to be wagered once again.
Please don't use the argument again that the real money always has to be wagered once. And again, we're not talking about deposited or gifted money here, but the real money after a successfully converted bonus.
Fortunately, this has been abolished! After successful wagering, you can now cash out immediately.
I have now read the whole thread and regardless of the poor RTP values, which every German casino has anyway, the answers here from the casino were quite good.
I also found the goodwill offer quite good, which is something you rarely find at casinos. After all, it was €100 and 50 free spins with no wagering requirements. Most casinos would have given nothing here.
The points of criticism are dealt with in detail, without a lot of waffling or glossing over. Still from the casino's point of view, of course, but at least clearly and concisely. Changes are even made quickly and the criticism is taken seriously.
I'm really the last person to defend casinos, but overall, the casino has responded quite well here. That's why I can't quite understand the many negative reactions.
What would interest me and perhaps the casino can answer me here: Why do they take such poor RTP values? I know that the Deposit limit is a big hurdle, but if halfway normal RTP values were used, word would get around relatively quickly among players and you could become the market leader. Even players who have no idea about RTP values would immediately notice the difference and then also remain as customers.
Or what exactly are the reasons for this? Was there an agreement among the casinos to use the poor RTP values? After all, there is competition and I can't quite understand why no casino has come up with the idea of jumping on this bandwagon. You could then use slogans like "We offer the best odds", "Only with us - Book of Dead with 96% RTP" etc.
The points of criticism are dealt with in detail, without much waffling or glossing over.
I see it differently. In the last part I criticized, among other things, that the player was not informed about the conditions of the goodwill offer and when the 2nd mistake was noticed (mind you, only because the player published the message) and admitted it, only an "Ops sorry right, yes the conditions for this are 1x implement" was posted. As a result, the player was left out in the cold again. I criticized this behavior last and in response they then explained why they had given the goodwill offer etc. (you can read the answer yourself. (you can read the answer yourself). For me, the answer was anything but accurate and to be honest, I don't feel like discussing it anymore because it only goes in one direction.
Falke wrote on 23.06.2024 at 01:17:
I also found the goodwill offer quite good, you rarely find it at casinos. After all, it was €100 and 50 free spins without wagering requirements. Most casinos wouldn't have given anything here.
It's a matter of opinion. I think it's bad because you also had to wager this €100. The player also thought it was bad. Only StarGames and you currently think the offer is appropriate. It would have been appropriate if the same bonus had been awarded with the change that the bonus could also be wagered with bonus money. That was exactly the point, that the wagering was only possible with real money and in the past it was also possible with bonus money.
Furthermore, the manager writes that this €100 was only given because wagering would be unrealistic. 20x wagering is pretty low. There are rarely Bonuses that have a lower wagering. Just for the record: for no Deposit, 40x wagering applies and if you win €50 from it, you have to wager €2000.
But enough of that, that was really my last post on this. Anyone who reads or will read this can draw their own conclusions and decide for themselves whether the trading here was good or bad.
It's a matter of opinion. I think it's bad because you also had to convert that €100. The player also thought it was bad. Only StarGames and you currently think the offer is appropriate. It would have been appropriate if the same bonus had been awarded with the change that the bonus could also be wagered with bonus money. That was exactly the point, that the wagering was only possible with real money and in the past it was also possible with bonus money.
Furthermore, the manager writes that this €100 was only given because wagering would be unrealistic. 20x wagering is pretty low. There are rarely Bonuses that have a lower wagering. Just for the record: for no Deposit, 40x wagering applies and if you win €50 from it, you have to wager €2000.
But enough of that, that was really my last post on this. Anyone who reads or will read this can draw their own conclusions and decide for themselves whether the trading here was good or bad.
So, I would immediately take €100 real money, which I would have to wager once, than a bonus with x20 wager and max cashout 300.
And the crux of the matter is that most casinos would simply have given nothing at all. After the criticism here in the forum, the bonuses were adjusted and the reference to the bonus conditions was made more specific.
I am in no way denying your view of things. I just see things a little differently in this case. The casino is at least trying to implement criticism and has made an effort to limit the damage.
The fact that you generally shouldn't play at German casinos due to the low odds of winning is another matter. StarGames should change this, then they would quickly become the market leader. But in this case, I think the casino has reacted correctly. I can only speak for myself, but if they had made me this offer, I would have seen it as a good deal and would probably have been pleasantly surprised. You have to remember that it was all Bonus money and bonus money is not really money. So the TE saved himself the hassle of wagering and received real money straight away. And yes, the one-time wagering wasn't necessary, I'm with you on that. But it's still better than wagering a bonus for hours with a 5-second rule and a max cashout
is not possible.
It's a matter of opinion. I think it's bad because you also had to convert that €100. The player also thought it was bad. Only StarGames and you currently think the offer is appropriate. It would have been appropriate if the same bonus had been awarded with the change that the bonus could also be wagered with bonus money. That was exactly the point, that the wagering was only possible with real money and in the past it was also possible with bonus money.
Nope, I think StarGames' offer is good too. Almost everyone (who can think halfway) would take €100 with 1x wagering +50 cash spins on €1 instead of €500 with 20x wagering and max. €300 payout. It shouldn't be difficult for you to calculate which offer you would be more successful with
Falke wrote on 23.06.2024 at 01:17: I have now read the whole thread and regardless of the poor RTP values, which every German casino has anyway, the answers here from the casino were quite good.
I also found the goodwill offer quite good, which is rarely found at casinos. After all, it was €100 and 50 free spins with no wagering requirements. Most casinos would have given nothing here.
The points of criticism are dealt with in detail, without a lot of waffling or glossing over. Still from the casino's point of view, of course, but at least clearly and concisely. Changes are even made quickly and the criticism is taken seriously.
I'm really the last person to defend casinos, but overall, the casino has responded quite well here. That's why I can't quite understand the many negative reactions.
What would interest me and perhaps the casino can answer me here: Why do they take such poor RTP values? I know that the Deposit limit is a big hurdle, but if halfway normal RTP values were used, word would get around relatively quickly among players and you could become the market leader. Even players who have no idea about RTP values would immediately notice the difference and then also remain as customers.
Or what exactly are the reasons for this? Was there an agreement among the casinos to use the poor RTP values? After all, there is competition and I can't quite understand why no casino has yet come up with the idea of jumping on this bandwagon. You could then use slogans like "We offer the best odds", "Only with us - Book of Dead with 96% RTP" etc.
Meanwhile, everything is calculated while you are playing, whether a slot has an RTP of 10 or 90% doesn't matter at all.
Take a close look at when the free spins start on Greentube slots, 90% of the time just under a full € amount, i.e. €10,20,30,40 etc.
After that, it is eaten down and then goes in the second time with almost the same amount as the first free spins.
Waiting for server response does not mean bad internet connection, at this moment it is calculated exactly what you are allowed to win.
Just one example of many, but I don't want to say any more here.
I've been asking myself the whole time why the Wagering requirements were increased in the first place, a truthful explanation would be very interesting.
But it will get even worse in the future 😉
STARGAMES scam AGBS!!!
Nobody has liked this post so far
Yes of course you could but whether you want to get a Provider into trouble right away because of a mistake is always a thing, maybe it was just forgotten can be quite possible and StarGames hasn't really stood out so far where you could say they're aiming to rip people off at the back, on the contrary, they've always answered questions about everything here
The other provider circumvents the streaming ban necessary for Player protection and thus shits on the law and thus on its customers
The other provider slams you with ads even though you have unsubscribed from them
The other provider lets you Deposit up to 5k a month without using the Lugas limit etc...
So many providers clearly show how little they care about their customers and in some cases even the player protection regulations, but StarGames is somehow not one of them
This post has been translated automatically
STARGAMES scam AGBS!!!
Liked this post:
XXLEONIDASXX
I don't think they would have any major problems right away. But I do think that they would receive a warning. They shouldn't be allowed to do this too often. At some point it would definitely be over. As I wrote before, I hope that not only player protection but also consumer protection has improved.
I can't say whether they don't care about their customers. I only know that the customer was disadvantaged twice (technical jargon: "taken for a ride"). Once he was disadvantaged because the terms and conditions of a promotion were changed without his knowledge and the second time he was disadvantaged when the "goodwill offer" was made to him. He was also not informed of the conditions of the offer. I am not friends with XXLEONIDASXX and have never written to him privately, but I find it really outrageous how he was treated here as a customer. If you ask me, the cherry on the cake was the following: at the end he was told that real money credits were converted once. Great, this information is now helping him. I'd feel like I'd really been taken for a ride. Let's say they can't help the poor RTP, but then the customer service should be right. There were other things that triggered me here, but I won't mention them. Don't want to go too off-topic.
This post has been translated automatically
STARGAMES scam AGBS!!!
Nobody has liked this post so far
Actually, the issue is already over for us and we didn't want to respond here. We are doing it anyway because unfortunately you write a lot of things that are not true and we would like to deny and clarify this. We are only replying to your last comment, but please take it as a reply to all other comments since yesterday.
Firstly. You are right. We are only allowed to make T&Cs with the player's consent and with the information "Hey, we're changing something in the T&Cs." . We did that the last time we received German permission. To my knowledge, there have been no changes to the T&Cs since then.
Because what you've already written about 10 comments here is NOT the T&Cs. They are bonus conditions.
There are GENERAL bonus conditions. You can also find them in the footer of our website. These describe the framework within which our promotions run. These are NOT our general terms and conditions.
However, there are also the specific bonus conditions for the respective promotion. These are also NOT our T&Cs. Why? Because you do not have to accept them in order to play on the website. You do not have to accept any of our offers.
In the case we're talking about here, although the promotion is called "Sunday Classics" and takes place every Sunday, the individual promotions are SEPARATE on every single Sunday. You can think of it like a Deposit bonus today and a Deposit bonus in 2 weeks. Both are deposit Bonuses, but the values, expiration dates, etc. can change between the campaigns. Because these are 2 separate, independent campaigns. Just like a supermarket chain that sometimes does a 25% off, sometimes a 30% off and sometimes a "pay 1, take 2" promotion, we do different things.
This is also the case here. So the conditions can change. Normally they don't, here there was a change, which has now been reversed anyway.
We accept your feedback and that it should be more transparent. You're right about that. Therefore, the conditions are now all immediately visible on the My Bonuses page for all active and inactive bonuses.
But we would like to deny for the last time that we would not follow the German law on terms and conditions and ask you to stop spreading such false statements. Thank you very much.
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frapi07
Frapi is our Messi
"show them"
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you called me and here I am
All good, you don't have to reply to every comment individually. I understand that. Unfortunately, mistakes happen here too. You forgot to respond to the most important criticism. But I'll deal with that later.
First of all, I would like to address the point of criticism regarding the GTCs:
It is your right to respond and justify yourselves. Nobody will hold that against you, least of all me. You think I'm writing a lot of false facts, so I'm going to prove everything factually so that the assertions now become facts.
So I read your comment and understood it like this: you argue that only the bonus conditions and not the terms and conditions were changed.
Okay, so far so good, now I have looked at your page Bonus Declaration | StarGames. At the bottom of the page it says "All of these individual units are explained in detail in our promotional campaigns via newsletter or on our promotion page. Answers to many questions can also be found under "My bonuses" and in the FAQ or at Terms and conditions for promotions." (last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:28)
Notice anything there? It says " Terms and conditions for promotions " If you click on the word, you will be redirected to another page, namely this Terms and conditions for promotions | StarGames You also call them Terms and Conditions! Makes sense, because the bonus conditions are part of the T&Cs.
Well, I did some more research and looked at the other competitors to be able to compare and check whether I was really too eager or whether I was right after all. At Wunderino, for example, the item "Bonus conditions" is also listed as a sub-item in the T&Cs (source: Wunderino terms and conditions, point 9: Free spins and bonuses; last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:35).
I also clicked through to Betano and found the following: " The bonus conditions of Kaizen Gaming International Ltd. are an essential part of the General Terms and Conditions. If a matter is not mentioned or explained in more detail in these terms and conditions, the terms and conditions apply as the relevant terms and conditions." (Source: Bonus Terms and Conditions | Betano, last accessed on June 22, 2024 at 21:37). Here, a competitor points out that the bonus conditions are a essential part of the GTCs and are not to be considered separately as you have just written.
Summary: T&Cs are an integral part of the T&Cs and if you change the Bonus terms of an existing promotion without permission, then you also change the T&Cs at the same time.
If I'm wrong again, please prove it to me. Then I will apologize, retract my accusations and end the topic. However, as I have proven here, the "bonus conditions" are an integral part of the T&Cs. I have provided enough evidence of this.
Well, I could stop here, because there is enough evidence to justify my criticism, but there is another point of criticism, which I mentioned at the beginning.
The way customers are treated:
You forgot to respond to the fact that your player was disadvantaged by you twice. Once with the bonus and once with the "compensation". You also claimed that the player here knew about the conditions. It turned out that this was not the case. What did you do then? Nothing. You simply explained to the player what the conditions of your real money credits were. What was the point of this explanation? By then it was already too late. Everyone makes mistakes and no one will hang you on a cross because of a mistake, but the way you handled it was just sad.
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And the official should also finally explain why you have to wager the converted real money once again after you have already wagered the bonus 40 times, this was not answered in the other thread.
Because I don't know of any casino on this planet where you have already wagered the bonus and then the money converted into real money has to be wagered once again.
Please don't use the argument again that the real money always has to be wagered once. And again, we're not talking about deposited or gifted money here, but the real money after a successfully converted bonus.
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Point 1: Bonus conditions are conditions that apply together with the GTC. But as we have already said: T&Cs are the contract between us and the player. You have to accept that when you register.
Bonus conditions are not included there. You accept these when you claim a bonus.
It is normal that we call these "General Terms and Conditions for Promotions", but these are still NOT the General Terms and Conditions that you accepted when you registered.
Hopefully this is now clear.
We have commented on point 2 several times. For the last time: the compensation was reasonable from our point of view. We feel that we have nevertheless accommodated the customer after a public posting in a public forum. 99% of casinos don't do that. They wouldn't even respond to something like that, German-licensed or not.
The credit was not because the terms were changed to real money wagering. It was because the customer had a requirement that was unrealistic to achieve. It would have been unrealistic even with bonus wagering, hence the compensation.
The issue is closed from our side. Please share any other experiences in the "StarGames experiences" thread, as they belong there. We wish you a nice evening and a pleasant weekend.
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This was already abolished a good 6 weeks ago.
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Fortunately, this has been abolished! After successful wagering, you can now cash out immediately.
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RebellYell
I also found the goodwill offer quite good, which is something you rarely find at casinos. After all, it was €100 and 50 free spins with no wagering requirements. Most casinos would have given nothing here.
The points of criticism are dealt with in detail, without a lot of waffling or glossing over. Still from the casino's point of view, of course, but at least clearly and concisely. Changes are even made quickly and the criticism is taken seriously.
I'm really the last person to defend casinos, but overall, the casino has responded quite well here. That's why I can't quite understand the many negative reactions.
What would interest me and perhaps the casino can answer me here: Why do they take such poor RTP values? I know that the Deposit limit is a big hurdle, but if halfway normal RTP values were used, word would get around relatively quickly among players and you could become the market leader. Even players who have no idea about RTP values would immediately notice the difference and then also remain as customers.
Or what exactly are the reasons for this? Was there an agreement among the casinos to use the poor RTP values? After all, there is competition and I can't quite understand why no casino has come up with the idea of jumping on this bandwagon. You could then use slogans like "We offer the best odds", "Only with us - Book of Dead with 96% RTP" etc.
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I see it differently. In the last part I criticized, among other things, that the player was not informed about the conditions of the goodwill offer and when the 2nd mistake was noticed (mind you, only because the player published the message) and admitted it, only an "Ops sorry right, yes the conditions for this are 1x implement" was posted. As a result, the player was left out in the cold again. I criticized this behavior last and in response they then explained why they had given the goodwill offer etc. (you can read the answer yourself. (you can read the answer yourself). For me, the answer was anything but accurate and to be honest, I don't feel like discussing it anymore because it only goes in one direction.
It's a matter of opinion. I think it's bad because you also had to wager this €100. The player also thought it was bad. Only StarGames and you currently think the offer is appropriate. It would have been appropriate if the same bonus had been awarded with the change that the bonus could also be wagered with bonus money. That was exactly the point, that the wagering was only possible with real money and in the past it was also possible with bonus money.
Furthermore, the manager writes that this €100 was only given because wagering would be unrealistic. 20x wagering is pretty low. There are rarely Bonuses that have a lower wagering. Just for the record: for no Deposit, 40x wagering applies and if you win €50 from it, you have to wager €2000.
But enough of that, that was really my last post on this. Anyone who reads or will read this can draw their own conclusions and decide for themselves whether the trading here was good or bad.
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So, I would immediately take €100 real money, which I would have to wager once, than a bonus with x20 wager and max cashout 300.
And the crux of the matter is that most casinos would simply have given nothing at all. After the criticism here in the forum, the bonuses were adjusted and the reference to the bonus conditions was made more specific.
I am in no way denying your view of things. I just see things a little differently in this case. The casino is at least trying to implement criticism and has made an effort to limit the damage.
The fact that you generally shouldn't play at German casinos due to the low odds of winning is another matter. StarGames should change this, then they would quickly become the market leader. But in this case, I think the casino has reacted correctly. I can only speak for myself, but if they had made me this offer, I would have seen it as a good deal and would probably have been pleasantly surprised. You have to remember that it was all Bonus money and bonus money is not really money. So the TE saved himself the hassle of wagering and received real money straight away. And yes, the one-time wagering wasn't necessary, I'm with you on that. But it's still better than wagering a bonus for hours with a 5-second rule and a max cashout
is not possible.
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Nope, I think StarGames' offer is good too. Almost everyone (who can think halfway) would take €100 with 1x wagering +50 cash spins on €1 instead of €500 with 20x wagering and max. €300 payout. It shouldn't be difficult for you to calculate which offer you would be more successful with
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Meanwhile, everything is calculated while you are playing, whether a slot has an RTP of 10 or 90% doesn't matter at all.
Take a close look at when the free spins start on Greentube slots, 90% of the time just under a full € amount, i.e. €10,20,30,40 etc.
After that, it is eaten down and then goes in the second time with almost the same amount as the first free spins.
Waiting for server response does not mean bad internet connection, at this moment it is calculated exactly what you are allowed to win.
Just one example of many, but I don't want to say any more here.
I've been asking myself the whole time why the Wagering requirements were increased in the first place, a truthful explanation would be very interesting.
But it will get even worse in the future 😉
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Hanshanshans
but of course Gambling is not only a lot of fun, it can also make you really crazy
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