Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

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Expert

Falke

Forum posts: 1.797 Member since: 06.03.2020

20th Nov. 2023, at 11:11 pm CET#18

1 Like

Liked this post: Falko

gamble1 wrote on 20.11.2023 at 18:32:

But this is the only solution because nothing changes as long as the state does not ask itself the question where the beautiful tax revenues have gone !

We get our money pay taxes we spend it in the casino pay tax again and in the end even pay tax again for everyone regardless of whether they win or lose

Regulation sounds so serious it would be more like taking the p**s out of an entire nation

We can't put up with this kind of stuff anymore our everyday life is determined by taxes on everything #fool yourself

How is that supposed to work at all?

Imagine someone pays in €100 and is very lucky. He makes a turnover of €100,000.
In the end, the lucky person pays out €5,000 and the casino has to pay €5,500 in taxes?

This is so criminal that there are no words for it. Where does something like this happen and who comes up with such crap and why has no legal action been taken against it?

It would be the same as a restaurateur selling drinks for €100 and then having to pay €600 in tax.

This post has been translated automatically

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Falko

Forum posts: 6.414 Member since: 08.07.2018

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 12:14 am CET#19

1 Like

Liked this post: Tigerbaby2004

Falke wrote on 20.11.2023 at 23:11:

How is that supposed to work at all?

Imagine someone pays in €100 and is very lucky. He makes a turnover of €100,000.
In the end, the lucky person pays out €5,000 and the casino has to pay €5,500 in taxes?

This is so criminal that there are no words for it. Where does something like this happen and who comes up with such crap and why has no legal action been taken against it?

It would be the same as a restaurateur selling drinks for €100 and then having to pay €600 in tax.

I have often wondered why the casino lobby has not taken legal action against the tax introduced in this way. In my opinion, it is extremely questionable whether this is really permissible. A 5.3% tax on the Deposit amount would have been fair, but taxing 5.3% of the bet per spin is simply criminal theft. We used to have a really strong gambling lobby, but now even they only seem to dance to the government's tune.

This post has been translated automatically

Expert

Saphira

Moderatorverified

Forum posts: 1.909 Member since: 24.01.2019

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 12:17 am CET#20

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Falke wrote on 20.11.2023 at 23:11:

How is that supposed to work at all?

Imagine someone pays in €100 and is very lucky. He makes a turnover of €100,000.
In the end, the lucky person pays out €5,000 and the casino has to pay €5,500 in taxes?

That is so criminal that there are no words for it. Where does something like this happen and who comes up with such crap and why has no legal action been taken against it?

It would be the same as a restaurateur selling drinks for €100 and then having to pay €600 in tax.

I still can't believe or logically comprehend that this is really how tax should be regulated. If I Deposit €10, am lucky and generate an insane turnover, the casino ends up paying absurd amounts of tax on a mini deposit and gives me a big win on top. This is no longer in any relation to the deposit amount and would be an abnormal loss for the casinos. It would only make sense if the taxes were deducted once and directly from the deposit amount. I wouldn't care at all if taxes were deducted per spin while I was generating a few thousand euros from a deposit of 10 euros. Just as an example. For me, that's air money with a grotesque air tax. In the end, I am many times richer. In this respect, I couldn't care less about the tax. Many people got upset about it, for whatever reason. As if they had been robbed of this money.

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Elite

Donnie

Forum posts: 3.248 Member since: 07.10.2021

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 12:41 am CET#21

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Liked this post: CashOut, Marieangels, Saphira

Andre wrote on 20.11.2023 at 15:58: Online casinos now have to pay tax on every spin, regardless of whether the player wins or loses with the spin. That was different back then and has enormous economic consequences for online casinos. I'm not trying to defend them, but the whole system can't work like this and the user is always the one who suffers in the end.

Yes, and yet many casinos have "acquired" the German license. Nobody has forced them to adapt to the rules. Imagine there is a German license and nobody wants it, problem solved, the state would have to give in and provide conditions that are far fairer. The casinos are just as much to blame for the "conditions", in any case it is not sustainable and a bad product for the player

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gamble1

Forum moderatorverified

Forum posts: 6.417 Member since: 21.04.2019

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 01:19 am CET#22

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Donnie wrote on 21.11.2023 at 00:41:

Yes and yet many casinos have "acquired" the German license. Nobody forced them to adapt to the rules. Imagine there is a German license and nobody wants it, problem solved, the state would have to cave in and provide conditions that are far fairer. The casinos are just as much to blame for the "conditions", in any case it is not sustainable and a bad product for the player

It's a bad product for everyone except the tax authorities

No wonder many casinos are moving to areas where they can't reach these greedy people - a license like that will sooner or later lead to bankruptcy because either you scare away customers because every store has exactly the same thing with a different theme or the providers don't make enough turnover to cover the taxes

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Expert

Falke

Forum posts: 1.797 Member since: 06.03.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 05:46 am CET#23

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gamble1 wrote on 21.11.2023 at 01:19:
or the providers don't make enough revenue to cover the taxes

You mean, or the providers make too much revenue to cover the taxes.

This post has been translated automatically

Expert

evopower140

Forum posts: 1.108 Member since: 26.10.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 09:08 am CET#24

2 Likes

Liked this post: Marieangels, Tigerbaby2004

Falke wrote on 20.11.2023 at 23:11:

How is that supposed to work at all?

Imagine someone pays in €100 and is very lucky. He makes a turnover of €100,000.
In the end, the lucky person pays out €5,000 and the casino has to pay €5,500 in taxes?

This is so criminal that there are no words for it. Where does something like this happen and who comes up with such crap and why has no legal action been taken against it?

It would be the same as a restaurateur selling drinks for €100 and then having to pay €600 in tax.

And that is exactly the reason why there is nothing to get in the casinos because the slots have been reduced so much that long evenings or days have passed. The RTPs have been reduced and then there's the €1 max plus tax - what else is the casino supposed to pay out to the player?

Now anyone who has been playing for a long time will immediately notice that the slots in German casinos behave strangely, it is sometimes already possible to guess what will happen next, as if they always play the same program

This post has been translated automatically

Experienced

Frankey

verified

Forum posts: 333 Member since: 13.12.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 09:22 am CET#25

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Andre wrote on 20.11.2023 at 15:58: Online casinos now have to pay tax on every spin, regardless of whether the player wins or loses with the spin. That was different back then and has enormous economic consequences for online casinos. I'm not trying to defend them, but the whole system can't work like this and the user is always the one who suffers in the end.

The tax was previously also deducted from the deposits made by a casino. Whether someone won or not has always been irrelevant because gambling wins are tax-free in Germany. No matter what type of gambling

This post has been translated automatically

Rookie

Tigerbaby2004

Topic Creator

Forum posts: 50 Member since: 15.04.2023

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 10:46 am CET#26

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The topic of my article is actually why the tax (via the detour of lower RTP) is also applied by the casino to free spins and Bonus money and whether this is correct. Löwenplay apparently does it differently. The RTPs are much higher there.

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Top Member

DieWunderharke5000

Forum posts: 952 Member since: 07.11.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 10:46 am CET#27

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Liked this post: CashOut

Frankey wrote on 21.11.2023 at 09:22:

The tax was previously also deducted from the deposits that a casino booked. Whether someone won or not has always been irrelevant because gambling wins are tax-free in Germany. No matter what type of gambling

What tax? Previously, no tax was paid at all. In Malta, yes, but not in Germany.

The "good thing" - if you want to call it that - is that tax revenues from virtual Slot machines are plummeting. If you look at the current figures, you can see that revenue amounted to €350 million in the first three quarters of 2022. In the same period in 2023, however, it was only €204 million. Meanwhile, sports betting and lottery taxes remain at the same high level.

Perhaps someone in the ministry will notice that something doesn't add up. People are definitely not playing less in 2023 than they did in 2022, it's just that there seems to be significantly less gambling in German stores. Why could that be? Completely inexplicable to me.

What do you think? Is there any reason to hope that this will be improved? I have always been in favor of withholding tax on wins directly from the casino. So, for example, if I pay out €1000 (and really only then) the tax is deducted and I only get 950 paid out and 50 goes to the state. But then again high RTP.

If you want to read and compare all the figures, you can do so here: Click

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Rookie

Tigerbaby2004

Topic Creator

Forum posts: 50 Member since: 15.04.2023

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 11:06 am CET#28

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Max-Power wrote on 20.11.2023 at 15:11:
Isn't that partly how it's regulated at Loewen-Play.de?
On this site at least Gamomat and Pragmatic Slots are listed with an RTP of over 94%:

https://www.loewen-play.de/unsere-spiele

Edit by Julian: Font color has been adjusted

As I see it, Löweplay is doing it the way I would like it to. High RTP on all games. Whether Bonus money or real money. Tax is deducted directly from the bet, but only for real money and not for bonus money. I think that's much more player-friendly.

This post has been translated automatically

Experienced

Frankey

verified

Forum posts: 333 Member since: 13.12.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 11:18 am CET#29

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DieWunderharke5000 wrote on 21.11.2023 at 10:46 am:

What tax? No tax was paid at all before. In Malta, yes, but not in Germany.

The "good thing" - if you want to call it that - is that tax revenues from virtual Slot machines are plummeting. If you look at the current figures, you can see that revenue amounted to €350 million in the first three quarters of 2022. In the same period in 2023, however, it was only €204 million. Meanwhile, sports betting and lottery taxes remain at the same high level.

Perhaps someone in the ministry will notice that something doesn't add up. People are definitely not playing less in 2023 than in 2022, it's just that there seems to be significantly less gambling in German stores. Why could that be? Completely inexplicable to me.

What do you think? Is there any reason to hope that this will be improved? I have always been in favor of withholding tax on wins directly from the casino. So, for example, if I pay out €1000 (and really only then) the tax is deducted and I only get 950 paid out and 50 goes to the state. But then again high RTP.

If you want to read and compare all the figures, you can do so here: Click

I was referring to the gambling halls. All I meant was the gambling tax never affects any wins because they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The tax on the lottery ticket might be included in the prize or wherever. Whether you win or not and that's the case with any gambling game Bingo, online or retirement home, casinos...

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Expert

evopower140

Forum posts: 1.108 Member since: 26.10.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 11:26 am CET#30

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Tigerbaby2004 wrote on 21.11.2023 at 11:06 am:

The way I see it lionplay is doing it the way I would like it. High RTP on all games. Whether Bonus money or real money. Tax is deducted directly from the bet, but only for real money and not for bonus money. I think this is much more player-friendly.

Basically, you're right, it would be better to have a good RTP again like it was 2 or 3 years ago and pay tax per spin because the RTP brings me more in the long run.

Even if the mathematicians come here again and say no, just not with the RTP of at least 94 percent, e.g. Book of Dead I already had really cool pictures and I prefer to pay per spin and have a chance to get 5 heads or something like that again.

The whole GGL thing needs to be updated otherwise they will never be able to compete with the illegal casinos.

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Experienced

StarGames_Official

Casino Manager

Forum posts: 482 Member since: 15.10.2020

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 11:27 am CET#31

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Falko wrote on 21.11.2023 at 00:14:

I have often wondered why the casino lobby did not take legal action against the tax introduced in this way. In my opinion, it is extremely questionable whether it is really permissible. A 5.3% tax on the Deposit amount would have been fair, but taxing 5.3% of the bet per spin is simply criminal theft. We used to have a really strong gambling lobby, but now even they only seem to dance to the government's tune.

A lawsuit was filed. But it was then rejected by the court and the case was lost. The reason given was, as far as we know, that the same tax is imposed on online sports betting as well as land-based casinos and gambling halls, so online Slot machines must also be taxed in the same way.

It is relatively clear that this makes little sense and does not help the regulated, licensed market.

This post has been translated automatically

Rookie

Tigerbaby2004

Topic Creator

Forum posts: 50 Member since: 15.04.2023

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

21st Nov. 2023, at 11:45 am CET#32

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evopower140 wrote on 21.11.2023 at 11:26 am:

Basically you are right would also find it better again a GUTS RTP like it was 2 or 3 years ago and pay per spinn tax for it because the RTP brings me more in the long run.

Even if the mathematicians come here again and say no, not with the RTP of at least 94 percent e.g. Book of Dead I already had really cool pictures and I prefer to pay per spin and have a chance to get 5 heads or something like that again.

The whole GGL thing needs to be updated otherwise they will never be able to compete with the illegal casinos.

Maybe we should play at Löwenplay in the future.

They give the high RTP and deduct the tax from the bet. I will certainly try it out to see if it works better there.

This post has been translated automatically

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Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

Caution !!! Rip-off at German casinos

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